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Mugi -

self-taught-mba has summed up the situation perfectly. No more to add in respect to 老外 per se.

But one further comment on 老 - while it is usually used in association with terms of endearment,
this is not always the case. Compare the distinction in 北京话 between 老头儿 (endearing)
and 老头子 (derogatory, when used by a stranger).



Quote:

Originally posted by roddy
if you turn up for a job interview and the receptionist tells her boss on the phone that 'that
bloke's here' or something.

I agree that "bloke" is probably similar in weight to 老外. However, no matter what the
situation, if someone referred to me as a "bloke" in a formal situation within my earshot, I would
either turn around and walk straight back out the door or have a few sharp words with the person
who uttered the term, or with their superior, and demand an apology.

Question: Have the terms 老白 and 老黄 (proffered above) actually come into existense to refer
to white guys and Asians respectively?
As for 老黑, when I was in China 10 years ago, this term was if not derogatory then certainly
very impolite, much more so than 老外. Has this changed?



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carlo -

The word 'foreigner' in English and 外国人/ 老外 etc. in Chinese are also used differently.
English speakers don't usually feel the need to specify that a friend is a foreigner, while a
foreign friend in Chinese is always a 外国朋友. Most people think of themselves primarily as
Americans, Germans, etc, rather than as 'non-Chinese', while the word 外国人 only says what you
are not. These differences in usage and connotation, more than anything else, are behind the
common impression that there is something wrong with the word (even people who can't speak Chinese
don't like being 'laowai').










Hero Doug -

Sorry, haven't been able to get on in a couple day's didn't expect so many replies.

I read daxia's post saying he used the term 东亚病夫 for annoying people lately. I can see how
this would be the same as saying something like "Dumbass Chinese", which would give the impression
that you hate all Chinese, when it's just that one annoying person.

I like dalaowai's suggestion of using xiangxiaren. Much more personal, shouldn't offend other's
who don't deserve it. The problem is that it's quite likely the person who origionally insulted
you will take offence to it not even realizing they had it coming to them. If they were to attack
you, I imagine if any Chinese bystanders had the gull to step into the fight (Not quite their
style from what I gather, wouldn't "want to get hurt" as my students often put it) there's a good
chance they aren't going to help you, just speculation, but I wouldn't expect any help.

And unlike Canada, where people will let other's fight, they stop it once someone has lost. I
don't think they extend that same courtesy here. I'd be worried they'd just keep going until
you're limp.

I'd like to hear your fight stories daxia, anyone rush to your aid? Or your opponents? Or, the one
I'm leaning towards, did everyone just watch?



Quote:


Originally Posted by woliveri

I hear LaoWai all the time here in Shanghai and it doesn't bother me a bit. In fact, when I hear
it I sometimes just reply back in Chinese, "wo bu shi laowai, wo shi zhongguo ren" with a smile
and be on my way.


Sometimes I'll just point back and call whoever said it Chinese. It usually surprises them.

Anyways, from what I've gathered, it's not really the word that's all bad, it's the people using
it. Some people just want to be jerks, and since you're a foreigner, they use the word foreigner
to be jerks to you. Seem's to have given the word a bad reputation.

Not sure if I'll ever get over the stigma of the word, may just ask people to use waiguoren.

P.S.


Quote:


Originally Posted by self-taught-mba

Most of the times it is kids that say it too me (my school is in an area in Beijing with
relatively few foreigners).

It is not considered polite and I've even heard parents tell the kids so. I think it is a matter
of ignorance for many people though and I don't really care. Like someone else said, it is more
about the attitude and feeling behind it.


I do have one comment on this, so give weight to what I said above.

When walking down the road I encountered a mother and her child (very young). The child looked at
me and said Waiguoren, kind of amazed. I don't really mind that. I've even noticed myself, after
not really seeing other foreigners for so long take notice of other foreigners, although I don't
announce it at the top of my lungs.

It's when children/teenagers/adults run up to you (or from where their standing) point, shout, and
laugh waiguoren/laowai. That get's to me. That's what's I mean by people using the term negatively
feeding the negative stigma it already has.

P.P.S. I know many adult aged Chinese people say their just excited to see a foreigner, but I
don't buy that for a second. It's just being a jerk. And I especially believe it after my friend
talked about this with a class of children he was teaching, and the children directly said "their
laughing at you", which I side with. Sadly I see this kind of stuff too much. Mostly from Children
and teenagers, but some adults to. It's just so detrimental to the country.










Long Zhiren -



Quote:

"bloke"

Wouldn't a better equivalent of that be 家伙?










xichg -

If you think Laowai is an insult and you are really bothered by it, it only means one thing: your
Chinese is pretty bad and you don't know Chinese society/culture well enough.










xichg -

As a Chinese who use and hear 老外 on the daily basis, I think this is neutral or even positive
word. It derives fromt he word 外国人. In chinese language you put the word 老 before the
first character of a noun and you form another word. If you want to look into the meaning of
老外, you should look into the meaning of 外国人. I think most people would agree that it's a
neutral word. In US people don't get offended by referred to as 'foreigner', because that's what
they are. But words' meaning keep changing and developing. Now the usage of the word 老外 sort
of is restricted to white people. And since most Chiense will associate positive things with white
people (i know this statement might cause controversy or even outcry of racism, but this is true
most of the time. One close African American friend told me that Chinese 'worship' white people),
the word 老外 has some positive connotions. On a scale of 1 to 100 (50 is neutral), I would put
it at about 75 or 80.

老黑 on the other hand has somewhat negative connotions. That's why I avoid using it in
converations. It's supposed to be a neutral term as 老外, but also as 老外 it gains its
感情色彩 from the perception most Chinese have on Africa-origined people. You may want to ask
how the Chinese people have these pre-conceptions since most of Chinese never meets a foreigner in
their lifetime. I think those conceptions are from the movies, TV shows, books, etc. And most
people in China think they know black people were discriminated in the west. This education is
supposed to be a good thing but when being educated many Chinese people actually ACCEPT the
stereotypes, and the discrimination against black people is imported to China. On the scale of 1
to 100, I would put this word at 40.










Long Zhiren -



Quote:

P.P.S. I know many adult aged Chinese people say their just excited to see a foreigner, but I
don't buy that for a second.

This happens all over the world. For most cases, I think you have to give them the benefit of the
doubt and assume goodwill.

I'm ethnically Chinese and born in Indiana many decades ago. I'm a native English speaker. Chinese
is my third language. I still encounter Americans all over the US who say they're excited to see
(me) a foreigner, when I'm not! They mean it too. They're just a bit slow.

Here's some of the favorite things that I've heard: "Your English is so good...I can barely hear
your accent..." "...I still remember when President Nixon visited your people..." "...where are
you from?..[Indiana]....no, where are you really from?...[It's just off the coast of
Manchuria.]...oh..."

On the flip-side, there's still plenty of flak, not so-well intentioned, from people even in the
most so-called multicultural and diversified parts of the country like California. People trying
to take advantage of me and wondering why I'm glaring at them... "...what? no you speakee
English?..."

People are people...naturally jerks. You need to get better at recognizing when they don't intend
to be jerks.

In Europe, nobody guesses that I'm American. They assume that I'm visiting from East Asia. I
actually get treated with more respect than prototypical Americans get...










赫杰 -



Quote:

If you think Laowai is an insult and you are really bothered by it, it only means one thing: your
Chinese is pretty bad and you don't know Chinese society/culture well enough.

I don’t think it means this at all, but I do think you are failing to put yourself in a
foreigner’s shoes. Let's imagine that you go to America where many people call you a "chink" or
even "foreigner" and points and laughs at you, and let's just say this happens on a daily basis.
Not only this, let's say the people around you talk about you and how weird and different you
look, just because they think you don't understand English. Would you feel very welcomed? Even if
it was part of our (America's) culture to talk about people loudly, derogatorily, and in ear shot
of the person being discussed, could you honestly say that you would not take it to heart? Could
you just dismiss it, and forgive these people on a daily basis, even though you know people should
not 以貌取人?



Quote:

As a Chinese who use and hear 老外 on the daily basis, I think this is neutral or even positive
word.

Here in 武汉, I once had a Chinese woman actually spit on me and say 该死的老外, while
walking in the street, and for no apparent reason. And I am sure there are people on this forum
who have experienced worse, so don't fucking tell me this is neutral or an even a positive word!
And I never did anything wrong, I do nothing to these people to deserve this, so now when I walk
in public, I just either hide behind a book and study, or just stare at the ground, cause I don't
want to catch someone's eye and give them an excuse to say shit to me.

I agree with everyone else that it all depends on context, when me and a good friend here go play
basketball together, someone will ask "who is on my team?" My friend will say him, him, and
老外, of course I am not offended in this situation.

Even though I have had some rough experiences with some Chinese here, I am definitely not going to
say that all Chinese are bad, because that would be 一概而论.

HJ










xichg -

Is it fair to equate 'chink' to 'laowai'? I think 'foreigner' is a better comparision than 'chink'.
And there is a huge difference between ‘该死的老外’and just '老外'.
It's just like 'foreigner' is a neutral word, but 'damn foreigners' is not neutral at all, but
it's not the word 'foreigner''s fault.
You are not alone in having bad experiences. The other day I was walking on campus, and some girl
walking behind me just shouted at me 'fucking Asians'. Should I blame the word 'Asian'?

As you said, it's all about context. And I still believe most people when they say 'laowai', they
have no bad intention at all. And they are not trying to be jerks on you. It's more about
surprise, curiosity and excitement. Of course you have every right to be bothered or annoyed, but
the thuth remains that in most cases it is not used to insult you.

I grow up in a village and it's very rare to see an aeroplane. Let's say a group of kids were
playing in the fields and somebody spotted a plane flying overhead. The kid who saw that plane
would be extremely excited. He would shouted 'Feiji, feiji' while pointing his finger at the plane
to draw other children's attention. And then other children will gazed at the plane until it
became too small to be seen. Years later I still do that, saluting every passing plane and being
amazed and excited by it.

It's also rare for many Chinese to see a real foreigner in real life. I think I can draw a
parallel between my plane story and kids calling you guys 'laowai' on the street. It's not the
best behavior, and you have every right to feel offended and annoyed, but the kids are not trying
to be a jerk on you or trying to insult you. Just like when my childhood pals got excited and
shouted when they saw a plane, the children here are also more excited, curisou than being mean,
hateful. Unfortunately it won't be a pleasant experience for many foreigners in China. It will
change when people are exposed to more foreigners. I was also excited to see foreigners when I
went to college in Beijing although I didn't yell 'laowai' at them or followed them. I remembered
how nervous and excited I was when I summoned courage to talk to a real foreigner in Zhengzhou
Raiway station square years ago. He was a Canadian, an English teacher teaching in Qingdao.
Luckily for me, he was very nice and very encouraging. I think my confidence would totally went
away if he just shouted at me, 'no free english lesson for you. Now when i walk on the street, i
don't look at laowais (except pretty hot girls) because they are everywhere. I do stare when i see
Asians on the street now.

Anyway, that's my perspective on the 'laowai' or 'hello' issue you guys encouter everyday. I do
know it won't be easy for many of you, and I don't deny it's annoying. But still it's important to
be cool, understanding and forgiving. I know you won't like it, but you can try seeing it as part
of Chinese culture, at least for now. That way you may find more positive feeling and less
negative feeling. You life in China will be more enjoyable and rewarding. And you won't find the
need to shout back '东亚病夫' (this is a very insulting word to Chinese) and get yourself in
trouble.










赫杰 -



Quote:

Is it fair to equate 'chink' to 'laowai'? I think 'foreigner' is a better comparision.

I wrote:


Quote:

or even "foreigner" and points and laughs at you

But yes I do believe it is fair to equate, because when someone calls me a 该死的老外, or the
like, and considering it being said in such a hateful and menacing tone, the only thing that I can
think of in America is the dumb asses who say something like, "You god damn/motha fucking chink"
Yes, you could replace "foreigner" with "chink" and the meaning is still there, but because you
are chinese, it is more insulting, and has more feeling.

The only reason I equated chink to laowai, was for my "what if" situation I presented to you and
to allow you to put yourself in a foriegner's situation in china, I am not saying lao wai = chink.
Similarly, if you were mexican, and was trying to make a similar point, I would have used spic.












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